Posts by moggy lover

146

The Trinity... is it a false teaching as the WTBTS claims?

by Honesty in

in the old testament god revealed himself to his chosen people, the israelites as i am:.

ex 3:14-15 - god replied to moses, i am who i am.

this is what you are to say to the israelites: i am .

moggy lover

The problem that Christians have when confronted by the JWs on this teaching, is that as the JWs themselves point out, there is no explicit teaching of the Trinity in the Bible. The JWs then wrongly conclude that because so-called "pagans" believed a teaching remotely descriptive of it, it therefore must be of ''pagan ORIGIN" We can with equal validity conclude that because these "Pagans" believed in the flood, that the flood must also be a teaching with a pagan origin. Indulgence never determines origin, and when the WTS asserts this, they merely indicate their own lack of scholarship.

The point is that no doctrine is explicitly taught in Scripture. This is because the thrust of Biblical teaching is to encourage personal investigation, so doctrine is tightly bound up in statements implicity imbedded in the Bible and capable only of individual scrutiny and conclusion. Indeed none of the the doctrines so beloved by the WTS is explicitly taught in the Bible, even in their own "Translation". The "last generation" teaching as expounded by the WTS has had to be modified at least on six seperate occasions, thus deceiving six seperate generations, precisely because it is not an explicit Bible teaching. The summation of WTS doctrine is arrived at by simply stitching together randomly collected verses and subjecting these to relentless interpretation.

It is true that the OT does not provide us with an incontroverible clue that affirms the existence of a Triune Deity, nevertheless, nowhere does it actually deny such a teaching which would later develop from the revelation of NT Scripture. The main contribution of the OT to the doctrine is to emphasize the unity of God. God is Himself not a plurality, nor is He one among others [Henotheism] God is revealed in the OT as single and unique. He is not made up of "parts" as if He were a three-in-one entity.

In the fully developed doctrine of the Trinity, arrived at by extensive and incremental study of the NT, especially over the first 4 centuries of the historic Christian Church, the unity of God is safeguarded by insisting that there is only one "essence" or "substance" of God. The Deity of Christ is fully asserted, because of revelation, and the individual existence of the Father and the Holy Spirit is preserved against the notion that these are only modes of God for the various purposes of dealing with man in creation and salvation.

Therefore the Trinity teaches that God is One [never three-in-one] yet Himself , and from all eternity is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are three and at the same time one. To deflect any suggestion of a three-in-one Deity, the Trinity explicitly states that there be no ''confounding of the Persons, nor any dividing of the Substance" The Christian admits to the fact the Trinity yeilds to no adequate explanation, and that God inhabits a dimension beyond human reasoning, defying explicability.

When the early Christians, conscious of the clear implication of NT revelation, began their hitherto unexplored quest for the meaning of God, they never once denied the plain assertion of the "Sheema" of Lev 6:6, they merely extended its meaning and further developed it. Perhaps in a mysterious verse like Isa 48:16, in a strongly monotheistic context, we have a close approach to trinitarian formulation.

Cheers

5

Isn't 144,000....

by MissBehave in

.

just (a) gross a thousand times?

co-inky-dink?

moggy lover

It's also 1 more than 143,999

Cheers

53

Create a Convention name!

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

.

how about the "godly oatmeal" convention.

....or how about the "divine chocolate cake" assembly?

moggy lover

"Making The Bible Say Whatever We Want It To Say" District Convention

Keynote speaker will be GB member, Reginald Tweedle-Twaddle who will demostrate how to make the Bile stand on its head, thus fooling all of the people all of the time

Bro Franz Gelderfelder will talk on "Give Us Yer Mony, You Saps"

Resident WTS scholar Bruce Iamconfused [10 years in the university of hard knocks - yep he graduated from the same school] will talk on: "How to make the word "day" mean everything else but a 24-hr period of time"

Cheers

15

The Harp of God - Proof Conclusive That Millions Now Living Will Never Die

by VM44 in

the harp of god, proof conclusive that millions now living will never die .

"a text-book for bible study specially adapted for use of beginners; with numerous questions and scripture citations.'".

rutherford, 1921. .

moggy lover

The Harp Of God was Judge Rutherford's first literary attempt at presenting his views. The book has gone through four seperate editions. The first edition came out in 1921, and is the only one that had the sub-title "Conclusive proof that millions now living will never die"

In the original edition, the premise was laid down that CT Russell in his person, fulfilled the role of the FDS here's what the book said: "Without a doubt, Pastor Russell filled the office for which the Lord provided and about which he spoke, and was therefore that wise and faithful servant, ministering to the household of faith meat in due season" [pg 239]

The second edition came out in 1928, and reflected a major doctrinal shift of monumental proportions. All reference to Russell being the FDS was excised from the revised edition. In the original edition pgs 235 - 241 were devoted to the subject of Russell and his special position in God's plan. This section was totally rewritten - pgs 240 - 248 - thus eliminating any suggestion of Russell's place in WTS theology. In fact in this edition, Russell's name deliberately does NOT appear. When the WTS quotes this book, THIS is the edition they quote from, giving the impression that they have always taught that the FDS is a class, not an individual.

Remember that the "Millions Now Living etc" slogan was designed for the year 1925, when it was expected that the "Ancient Worthies" would be resurrected. In anticipation of this the 1921 edition carried the slogan as a sub-title. All other editions being post 1925, naturally no longer carried this embarrasment

Two further editions came out, one in 1937, and the other in 1940. They contained no major change from the 1928 revision. However, there is one interesting historical footnote to the two later editions. In 1930 Rutherford formally changed the date for Christ's "invisible Parousia" from the original 1874 to 1914 [See The Golden Age magazine 1930, pg 503]

Now, the curious thing is this: These two newer editions for the Harp of God were still publishing, in 1937, and 1940, the old date!! Imagine the confusion among the R&F members. Here they were told in 1930 that the new date was 1914, yet publications were coming out in 1937 and 1940, respectively, using the old date. Obviously, the proofreading or editing was not as controlled then as it is now. The dates slipped through. Methinks the WT "god" was asleep at the wheel.

Cheers

15

The Reformed Church of God, anyone know anything about them?

by wednesday in

i have found their web site and am reading some of their material.

they sound and awful lot like jws.

i sent an email and they have responded very nicely.

moggy lover

We are having difficulty locating the web site. As far as I can see, there is no church registered as "Reformed Church of God" anywhere on the web

I rather suspect that they are an offshoot of the Armstrong original which was called "The Worldwide Church Of God" When He died a great deal of controversy swerled around his beliefs and the way he was viewed by the members. Rumors even began to circulate about certain sexual improprieties between him and a daughter.

He had for instance dictated that no divorce and remarriage was permissable in his group, yet he indulged his son's misconduct for a while, and evetually himself remarried.

When he died his own church became mainstream, dropping some of his more extreme beliefs, such as British-Israelism, maintaing all the Jewish feasts such as Passover, Day of Atonement, etc and including many of his racist views as well.

Several offshoots then developed each appending the expression "Church of God" to their name. To the best of my knowledge these were:

Global Church of God

Philadelphia Church of God

Living Church of God

Church Of God, Reformed Tradition

etc

If the group you are referring to is one of these then they will believe a variation of Armstrong tradition: 1 The British Race is the "Spiritual Israel" of the NT 2 Soul Sleep 3 The destiny of the believer is to become God.[similar though not the same as Mormon belief] 4 Sabbath keeping 5 Jewish diettary laws to be kept 6Herbert W Armstrong was the final messenger of God 7 The "Born Again" experience occurs only at the resurrection 8 "God" is a family presently consisting of The Father and Christ, but soon will constitute all the believers in Armstronism 9 The British Monarchy is directly descended fro the Jewish line of David 10 The OT god is referred to as JHVH, and is identified with Jesus Christ in His Pre-incarnate exixtence 11 The 10 Lost Tribes Of Israel were regathered by God to form the various nations of Europe. 12 Ephraim/ Manasseh for instance are Britian/America 13 Before Adam was created, the earth was the home of a race of angelic beings, who eventually rebelled against God, and because they were expelled, Man inherited the earth as a dwelling [This is explained as part of a "Gap Theory" in Gen 1:1] 14 Christmas and Easter are "pagan" in origin, we need to observe the Jewish Passover, Day of Atonement, The Feast Of Pentecost etc 15 Physical healing is a spiritual, not medical process

The different groups have played around with these teachings, dropping some, modifying others. Some have adopted the Trinity, some not. Some have dropped Br Israelism, and some have even acquired certain Charasmatic traits.

Cheers

20

Can someone explain Mosaic Law please??

by Super_Becka in

ok, so maybe i should've asked this a long time ago, but i'm a little slow sometimes.

my apologies for being uneducated in this particular area.

hey, i'm still learning, that's why i'm here.. i've seen a lot of references to mosaic law here on the board, but i'm a little unclear as to what it is, what it says, what it means, and who it applies to.

moggy lover

As can be seen from the various responses above "The Mosaic Law" was a collective name given to a vast and complicated series of edicts given to the ancient Jewish people by divine fiat and mediated by the person of Moses. In traditional Jewish theology it signified the relationship entered into by the Israelites and the God they worshipped, Yahweh.

There are some eight seperate words that can be construed as meaning "Law" in Hebrew. The most comprehensive of these is the word "Torah" There is a certain overlapping ambiguity in the application of this word as a result of which it can have several seperate meanings. There is a sense in which it refers to the entire corpus of Mosaic literature, embodied in the first five books of the OT, however it can have a more restrictive meaning alluding to the some 600 ordinances embedded in those those five books.

Jewish theolology has long been concerned with the broad efficacy of this legal system, especially in the light of increasing impracticalities in observance. [For instance how does one celebrate the Sabbath in the North Pole, where the sun may not set for 6 months] As a consequence of this a parallel system of belief developed around a series of commentaries designed to expand and explain the "Torah" This came to be known as the "Talmud" It has been accepted by conservative scholarship that the Babylonian Talmud developed over several centuries between at least the 2nd Cent BC and the the 5th cent AD. Talmudic scholarship presently undergirds almost the entire scope of Jewish Theological investgation

For Christians, the importance of the "Mosaic Law" derives from its relationship to the epistolary revelation of the NT. There is no unanimity of opinion that can be considered authoratative enough to cover the entire range of Christian belief.

Whereas it is accepted that Christ kept the Law to perfection, the implication of this is debated. The most common Evangelical belief is that the Law, or at least its physical aspects, has thus been done away with, and the relationship between God and the believer is now through "grace" and not "works of the Law"

There is, however, a collective body of Christian believers, who form a sub-group within the Evangelical tradition who differ. This group is collectively known as the "Holiness" movement, and the denominations within this grouping are usually styled "Churches Of God" They feel that because Christ kept the Law, it does not mean that it has been removed, but that it is still operative. To varying degrees, these groups keep different aspects of the Mosaic Law, the different festivals for instance.

The SDAs suggest that the Sabbatical aspects of the Mosaic Law are still valid, along with certain dietary restictions

Another sub-family, called the Sacred Name Movement, [because they, like the WTS, emphasize the need to employ God's "name" in worship] adopt many of the more overt customs of the Mosaic Law, in fact identifying them more with Judaism than Christianity. Several of the leaders within these groups wear Jewish vestments in worship.

The WTS likes to give the impression that they, like Evangelical Christians, no longer pattern themselves after the Mosaic Law, but their emphasis on leagalism, and their almost paranoid concern with doctrinal purity belies this impression

17

JW jokes

by IP_SEC in

how do we know sisters wont be able to drink wine in the new system?.

you cant put new wine into old bags.

your turn

moggy lover

Did ja know that back in the 70s when J Edgar Hoover ruled the roost at the FBI that his agents had an alternative title?

Yep. They were called:

J Hoover's Witnesses

Cheers

23

What is the criteria for deleting congregations?

by TooOpinionated in

after reading another thread about a congregation being deleted, i am curious about the process.

i didn't even know it could happen.

how is it all decided?.

moggy lover

Hi Jimmy 423, and welcome.

You sure can add me to your mail list, and keep posting

Cheers

21

Insight Book on CD-ROM under CHRONOLOGY different from print version.

by ithinkisee in

page 453 (vol 1) of the printed books states:

a babylonian clay tablet is helpful for connecting babylonian chronology with biblical chronology.

tebet, night of the 14th, two and a half double hours [five hours] at night before morning [in the latter part of the night], the disc of the moon was eclipsed; the whole course visible; over the southern and northern part the eclipse reached.

moggy lover

I can confirm Garybus and his observation. I have the same edition, and yes, the word "evidently" is conspicuously absent

Cheers

17

hi

by browe in

jw
friends

hi all.

i am new on here.

moggy lover

Hi, Browe, and welcome to JWD Forum Tell us something about yourself. You are among friends

Cheers